017 An insiders guide to building credibility with - and through - the media
Good day, and welcome to the podcast, the show where we help you become your own PR machine. My name is Trevor Young, and the power of earned media and the foundational role media relations and influencer relations plays in the overall PR mix is a really big important meaty topic, and we're going to unpack it in multiple ways today with my guest, Liam Fitzpatrick, who runs a business called Commswork. Liam, welcome to the show.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Thanks for having me, Trevor.
TREVOR YOUNG:Liam, we go back. We've worked together. We've collaborated on projects, and I might just actually kick off with this little story because it's you know, if you're running a business and you're offering services and, you know, your expertise, etcetera, and you wanna collaborate with others, This is a classic I was just thinking about this just before we hit record, and I think, let's tell this quick story because this is how we didn't know each other clearly when we started. As most people, they they're strangers. The the beauty of social media is, I'm I'm active on Twitter.
TREVOR YOUNG:You've you saw me on Twitter, didn't you?
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Yeah. So I originally hail from the UK. And back there, within the event industry, Twitter was, at least 10 years ago, was very, very popular, and hashtags and following what people are saying about the event is where you go. And that's what I was doing at a it was a blockchain event back or in Melbourne, around about 6 years ago. And, yeah, saw that you were interested.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:We were connected with similar people. So I think the next time you're up in Brisbane, we went for a coffee, and it all kicked off from there.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yeah. It's it's you you're spot on, and and I think we underestimate the power of in person events. And, you know, it certainly is in part of the remit of PR, I think, and the whole networking side of things, but doing it strategically. And if you do it with social media in advance and you can cherry pick, you know, people you might wanna catch up with, and we did catch up, and which was terrific. And, Yeah.
TREVOR YOUNG:That was my first blockchain conference and my last. My friend was running it, and I was there to support, but my eyes glazed over a fair bit. But we, because you're involved in, you know, media relations and, you know, getting, thought leaders out there in the media, in traditional media, probably more so in those days. And, we we, did catch up, got on, and we thought alike, and, we we've we've, been working on a number of jobs together. So I've seen you in in full flight, my friend.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:That's right. Well, look. Events are are massive, and they don't have to be big scale, tens of thousands of people there either. I think if you're if you're any organization, you need to think about the people that you're looking to reach out with, and those that can offer insights to those people as well. And I think, the role of collating, the right people into a mix for a dinner, for a breakfast event, If you've got something to say, it's a powerful platform to be able to say it from.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So yeah. I can't speak enough about events and then, I guess, amplifying them, through social channels, your own channels, earned channels if you can get it. So, yeah, there's there's lots of options available, but don't never forget the power of meeting people in person. I think if COVID highlighted anything, it's just how much we miss that connection. And some of the first events back from COVID as well, were some of the most enjoyable where people are seeing people that haven't caught up within 6, 12 months' time.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yeah. 100%. And, jeez, how are we going? We've diverted right from the topic straight off the bat, but, I'll get I'll get us back on track. But, just so people get a good feel for who you are and what you do, and, so, you know, they'll understand where you're coming from when we we dig into this whole media relations, influencer relations, earned media side of things.
TREVOR YOUNG:Just give us a bit of a rundown on on your good self.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Yeah. So I trained as a journalist and, still absolutely love the creative writing aspect of things. I think the ability to, potentially persuade and convince other people to think differently was where my love of the English English language started. Mhmm. And that hasn't changed, over the past couple of decades either.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So that's kind of where I started. Moved into, communications, mainly in the b to b space for the past 15 years or so. So the answers that I'll give today are predominantly from that space, although the approaches work just as well in the consumer world, usually, as long as you know your audience.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yeah. Of course.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:I've I've worked in agencies. I've worked in in house as well, across the kind of Marcom space, and worked for international brands through to 1 person startups. Yeah. So there's a bit of a range from the likes of the Walt Disney Company, through to those very early stage startups. But the, I guess, the tactics that are deployed will be slightly different, but the thinking that goes behind them will remain the same.
TREVOR YOUNG:Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, some sometimes if you you know when you're not working for a big brand, you know, when you're working for a big brand, there's there's a different nuance around getting in the media and, when you're working with someone who's unknown, then, let's let's kick off on that because, you know, most people most people who are running businesses, you know, unless they're superstars in their industry, they might not be well known. And I guess there's 2 parts to it too when we're talking about media relations. One is, you know, more mainstream media, and the other is probably more niche media within your industry or profession, and that's usually where most people will, start and finish, but, you know, the whole idea often is to maybe get up into more mainstream titles, again, depending on your industry and what it is you're wanting to achieve.
TREVOR YOUNG:But let's look open up media. I mean, we're talking, you know, when we think about media relations or media publicity, what's the difference? What do you see the difference? In in our industry, we call it media relations because it's about building relationships with media people and not quick hit publicity. But what do you what's your take on media relations versus media publicity when people talk about that, if if at all?
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Well, look. You're right when you say, it's about building relationships. I think the the, one of my first bosses that I worked with coined, a number of different phrases that stuck with me throughout my career. He's a master strategist and tactician, old school PR guy, and he was Martin Lote. And he, tried to get into those that we're just starting, the idea that people buy people.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So it doesn't matter whether you're networking, you're pitching, or having a quiet coffee, with your good self, at the Pullman. Right? It's about making sure that you get across your ideas and what you, believe in and what you have to offer, I guess, the other person as well. So whether you're going to be buying a product or a service or even a press release, you need to make sure that you're positioning it in the right way. And that difference of, how it affects that audience or that person's life or, the enjoyment they have that morning if it's a coffee.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:That's what you're looking to make the difference about. I often talk about influencer engagement, and this isn't a phrase that I've come up with that won't surprise you. I've been using it for the best part of 15 years now. But whilst they know the media has a massive reach, it's not just about journalists. It's also about analysts that are, offering commentary on a particular industry that you're in.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:It's about, anyone that's willing to put commit their thoughts, down on paper as well in opinions. If you land as a former boss of mine who, was the CEO of a an Australian ASX listed company. And more often than not, he used his own channels to push out opinion pieces, and these opinion pieces would go for 15, 20 minutes. If you can have an opinion which has enough gravitas and weight to it, is well argued and compelling enough, you'll have others quoting you in the media as well. So the media relations aspect of it, you can become your own platform.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:I'm sure we'll we'll discuss own the media and becoming your own brand a little bit later as well. For me, publicity, is when you have something that you're looking to sell. It's a TV program, an event, or new type of candy bar. It doesn't matter. It's about getting others interested in that particular product so you've got something to sell.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Media relations isn't about that. It's about being interested in what others are doing, what others are saying, thinking, writing. Another lotism from my former boss was also, that what matters is what matters to the people that matter. And in this regard, I think you could also say that, the what will change depending on who you are, what industry you're in, and the people within that phrase will change. Could be your stakeholders, your tribe, your audience, doesn't matter.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Whatever the key demographic is that you're looking to, to reach out to to influence and to change their mind, if you can find a key nugget, key insight that helps them think differently or helps them unlock some untapped value within their own business or within themselves, That's where PR gold is, and that doesn't change no matter who you are. So whether you're at the lower levels, one person startup band, or whether you're Disney creating storytelling opportunities for 1,000,000,000. It's as true in earned media as it is in business. If you find that insight, that's when you're gonna find success and be able to get across your point in the way that you'd like to and be remembered.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yeah. Yeah. So let's unpack media because, you know, we say people would say we wanna be in the media and and, you know, people who listen to me at all will know that I use the phrase earned media. I really love the phrase earned media, which probably covers all the things we're gonna be talking about, which means basically getting other people to, getting editorial coverage on independent third party channels. And so that's the media today.
TREVOR YOUNG:It's splintered. It's all over the shop. It's multichannel. It's everything. You know, we used to have magazines, newspapers, broadcast, you know, talkback radio or radio generally and TV, and then if you wanted to go a little niche you had vertical titles that would service an industry or an air a space or a niche, and you would have community radio, community TV, and community local newspapers.
TREVOR YOUNG:So that though all of those channels still exist for sure and have got audiences, but, of course, the audiences have split across, how many millions of blogs and podcasts. And a couple of the areas that I really like, that I want people to get a handle on is that in your area, your space, your industry, there could well be blogs and online publications run by brands and they're doing a good job and running them well but they're running of you know very lean and they're always after opinion pieces and contributors. And the other one is what I call hybrid media, which is they've come into the, you know, the traditional, I guess, industry publication space and started up usually exjournos probably or ex media people, and so they run with, editorial integrity and intent. And, they might have started as a small blog and grown from there. And so they're genuinely an industry publication now, but they've got very few staff, and they've they've they're digital only, and, which most probably even the old old style magazines are getting more digital only now as well.
TREVOR YOUNG:But, you know, and then you've got podcasts and live streams and YouTube channels. And let's not forget newsletters now, which is the next big thing, and it could be a newsletter from your professional association that goes out to your peers. So when we think media, think broad. Think niche, think, just expansively because that's where the opportunities really lie for someone who's trying to carve out a reputation and a thought leadership positioning in the marketplace.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:That's a 100% right. I think it goes back to, influencers that I mentioned before. It might be, an industry association blog. Newsletters is a is an interesting one because it's it's your it's where you control, the information that fans, audience, customers receive from you. It's the first kind of marketing channel that you should be focused on.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Building your audience within a newsletter allows you to maintain that contact and be front of mind. And also if they're not buying at the moment, which in the b to b space, 95 percent are usually not in the market for what you're selling, staying top of mind for when they are is is absolutely crucial. And providing value to them in the meantime through a newsletter, through connecting them with with others, that's kind of where you have the option for. I think with the sunsetting of Google's cookies and the ability to, track users, consumers, or people around the Internet, That's gonna mean that your your first party data data, if you're international, is really key. And I think if you're able to build up that audience, that's amazing for yourself.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And as you say, there are opportunities that if you look around where if you want to get a blog on the IAB, for instance, if you're within the the media space, then those opportunities do exist providing you're a member, of that organization. So there might be some stipulations about who and what you can contribute, but it's always worth looking at their sites and their about us sections, their their resources to get a better understanding of who their audience is and what value you can offer to them. I think the the earned media part of it is right. It's it's not just traditional media anymore. It could be podcasts.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:There's so many clients that are coming to me asking for podcast strategies or digital audio strategies because you still have people, those that are going into the office on their morning commute where their podcasts or levels are rising, and they show no signs of stopping either. So I think if you can reach that niche audience with a message that's relevant to them, that's when you're gonna find success. And one of the Yeah. Other, industry folks that I'm a big fan of is Karen Eck. She specializes in this area, and she talks about the the power of visibility.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So it's about looking at the channels that you have access to whether they're your own, whether they're, someone else's where you can earn that legitimacy of of having your thoughts put down. Harnessing your network and taking those everyday conversations that you might have at work and turning them into something, valuable, thought provoking for the wider industry. Mhmm. So a lot of the a lot of people are already having these, conversations within markets about taking what you do every day and using it as a as a vehicle to improve your own personal brand.
TREVOR YOUNG:There's so much to unpack here, but I let's just look at, we'll get tactical, but I just wanna look at a couple of strategic things, and we've used the word owned media. And, again, owned media, those media channels you own and control, so your blog, your website, your, email newsletter that goes out to your own subscriber list, podcast. I always throw YouTube in there because, well, you know, YouTube could change the game. You can the videos that you produce, you you can still put them on your own blog, and you don't even have to use the YouTube player. You can use something like Wistia, etcetera, live streaming, that side of things.
TREVOR YOUNG:So, you know they're the main channels and I'm a believer philosophically I'm a believer in you doing your own media channels first, you start building your profile, you start honing your story, your message, you know, just by she writing or talking on a podcast or whatever, you you'll get better and better with your, ideas, opinions, and you'll be basically workshopping them in to a degree in public, which probably scares a few people. But that's where you sort of kind of start. And social media is, you know, obviously in lockstep with that from a distribution point of view and and also reaching out and following and connecting with, other influencers and journalists and editors and podcasters, etcetera. So that that's just let's lay the land there. Now we'll kind of get into more the if we want to there's 2 parts, I think, to getting editorial coverage.
TREVOR YOUNG:One is the bigger you build your brand, through owned media and social media. Hopefully, media will come to you, for opinions, for can you be a guest on the show? Can you offer some quotes? Can I interview you? They might list you on something, whatever.
TREVOR YOUNG:So that's inbound, and that's a great place to be. If you can build up to that point, that's that's smashing. But there's also the external. What is it? Not the expert.
TREVOR YOUNG:The outbound and going out to the media, and this is what we'll probably discuss now. But what what what's your thoughts on the inbound and the outbound mix and why it's important?
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Look. If you can get inbound, you're in a good place. I think if you've got the cache and the international recognition of a a Google, a Samsung, an SAP, then then you're in a good place. So then it's about honing and crafting that message and almost being a gatekeeper of what access, journalists and media get to to the brand, to to
TREVOR YOUNG:But even a smaller business can certainly be in that, you know, if you've got
LIAM FITZPATRICK:a book out or, you know, you're active. That's the interesting point. So you spoke about what you can do from an outreach point of view. I think if you have put the hard yards into, have people interested in you through whether it's a book, whether it is something you said in the media, whether something you said in an event. Having those inbound inquiries is great, but it probably start with the outreach that you you do.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And then PR and media relations is a bit of a snowball effect. I think if you can start that off by having people interested within your smaller niche and get a few, I guess, runs on the board for one of a better phrase, then media will be more likely to come back to you if they are running right in a feature about something else. I think we spoke a bit about our kind of own channels. And one of the things that you need to do from auditing point of view, which you can do by yourself or or ask a professional to come in and help, is look at at your your channels and whether they're representing your brand appropriately. So if a journalist is pitched a story and they don't know you, they may go to your LinkedIn.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:They may go on the site, look at your blog. Is there any interesting stuff that can, I guess, build that trust that what they're gonna say is gonna be of interest to their audience in the future as well? So it's about building that trust. And the more that you do it, the more runs on the board, the more media coverage that you're gaining, the more people trust you to, offer insights into the next feature that they're writing.
TREVOR YOUNG:Well, that's that's the thing. If someone's going to interview you or get a quote from you or whatever, whether it's a journalist, there's an editor, or a broadcast researcher, you know, podcaster, whoever, YouTuber, they wanna make sure that you've got the chops. You know, you have got the bona fides that you know what you're talking about because it's all about risk, isn't it? They don't wanna put someone on an interview and that, you know, you you can't cut it. And so
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Yeah. The the risk factor is is massive. I think the the more the more live an event, if it's live broadcast TV, a producer will want to speak with you about the story first to make sure that you're able to presenters of TV shows will often want to have their 2ยข as well. So you're there to support whatever angle they're going with. Yep.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So if you've spoken at an event, ask if you can get that footage and put that on YouTube. If you've, written an article, or you've had some thoughts on LinkedIn that you have turned into an article, put it on a blog. And if you're pitching to a journalist and you're maybe not as familiar as, others within the industry, then use some examples of where you can demonstrate authority and knowledge on that particular area. I think Yep. Yeah.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Being able to demonstrate your your chops is massive, and really remove the risk for for media, for a podcaster, evidence it wherever you can.
TREVOR YOUNG:And it's validation. So this is a a big thing that people say, oh, you know, you wanna build your audience and all of that. Of course, we do. You know, with that through all our channels, everything we do, We wanna be, you know, the goal is to be reaching the right people and be presenting ourselves in the way how we want to do it, which is really, I guess, you know, if personal brand is what people the image people form a view in their minds and, you know, their experience of coming into contact with you, then, personal branding, if we're gonna get in that side, and same with business branding, that's the, I guess, the the art and science of shaping those those perceptions of you as to how you want to be seen. So validation is an incredibly important part of the owned media mix when it comes to earned media.
TREVOR YOUNG:So let's we're we're probably veering and and and to be honest, this is let's break up between news and more thought leadership evergreen type content. People, you know, people who run companies and they'll say, oh, okay. I wanna get in the media and you've gotta, you know, strategically ask the reason why. And they'll they their answer probably won't be great. But if it's look.
TREVOR YOUNG:Media is a strategic part of extending the reach of our voice, of our brand in the marketplace, then it's a really good means to do it on an ongoing basis, not just a one hit. Walk us through, you know, how businesses can or business owners can work out whether it's something they've they're capable of doing because you can't just, you know, it doesn't just happen. There's no things that such thing as free publicity. Someone's not just gonna or out of the blue, a reporter, you know, cover your story. But, you know, there's news, and that's something that's bang straight away.
TREVOR YOUNG:Hot topic button issue straight away, you you got to act on it versus the more evergreen, thoughtful building up maybe a thought leadership or showing your expertise over a period of time by creating the story, creating the news, creating the hook, having having that perspective and opinion that's going to on a hot button issue that's going to resonate with the media's audience.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Exactly. I think there there's a couple of ways to go about it. If you you look at, what it is that you have to say, so that will depend on what industry you're in. That will depend on, I guess, your seniority, and experience to a degree. But taking something that you want to say and couching it in terms that the media want to hear, that's called building the bridge.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And I think the more you can build the bridge between, your message and what the media want to hear, the more results you will get out the other end of it. So understanding a a journalist, or the news agenda, sorry, that is is vital, to be able to plan for events that are coming up that, you know, the media are going to be interested in. Whether it is, a certain manufacturer talking about the latest AI developments, you could put together an opinion on how AI is changing your industry and send it to a journalist, who may already, in advance, have said that they're going to this conference. That's one way to plan for something that is already gonna happen, that you've got a better chance of, get if the journalist is already writing about something, they're gonna be looking for other sources to justify it. I think if you can be aware of that, you'll have a better chance of succeeding.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:The more evergreen content, this is where you look at, I guess, the white space that you want to own within your industry. And what what is everyone else talking about, what are we talking about, and what impact is that gonna have on the customers or the audience that we're trying to reach. Anytime you're able to draw insightful trends about what is happening within your industry, that only you're aware of, that's your point of difference, and that's where you can really, go to town, particularly with your your own content. And then you'll have a better chance for earned media as well. I think buckets of content.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Right? You and I have spoken about this a number of times. If you can have, you know, 3 to 5 buckets of content where you've got an opinion ready to go on a particular area because it makes you in a position to make that, make that comment, and you've got the insight and the the nous, to to be able to demonstrate why you are the person, to be making that comment and why is it interesting now.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yep. I
LIAM FITZPATRICK:think that's the biggest thing that you need to think about with the media is, why now? What makes it interesting? And some of the evergreen content that you put forward, could still have a topical, view on it. So cookies and third party data, for instance. That is a topic that is not going away, and has been in the media for the last 10 years or so.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So you need to have a view on it if you're in in amongst that industry. So it really depends on where you where you specialize and where you think you can get the most cut through.
TREVOR YOUNG:And like everything, it's it's about having a bit of a fresh take, a twist, a contrarian view is always good.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Familiarity with a twist, Trevor.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yes. Familiarity with the twist.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:If the if the journalists or the media, have a concept of the industry and an idea of what's going on, having a a hot take or or something that is, different to what we've already heard. Contrarian is exactly right, but not for contrarian's sake.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yep. And, look, the number one thing, and this is where a lot of business owners probably because, like, you know, we all run our businesses. We're surrounded by our products and services, and we get besotted by them. And and, you know, if it's one thing that journalists really hate, it's that that, you know, you pitch a story that's all about you, your brand, your products, and that's not gonna fly. You know?
TREVOR YOUNG:Yeah. Maybe in a really rare circumstance, a genuinely innovative product or an innovative service that's gonna, you know, take the world by storm. Go for it. You know? But that's that's in 99.9% cases, that's quite rare.
TREVOR YOUNG:I mean, obviously, if you're you've, you know, you've got a company and it's a major publicly listed company's bought 50% of it, that's genuine news. So we're not pooh poohing the genuine news. There is times when there is, but it has to be genuine. It has to be a real hook, and it has to be right now. But there's a what we're talking about here is a couple of ways so we'll look at opinion pieces in a minute.
TREVOR YOUNG:What we're we're talking about Helium is really how can we make something, if it's evergreen, the problem is it might never get up because, something that's more newsy and topical is going to hit the mark quicker. So, for example, I I worked with one company and they knew that there was this research coming out, in the telecommunications industry and it was news day, I think it was, like it was a quiet news day which is always a good thing because, everyone's away, but people still listen to the radio, etcetera. And it was on January 2nd, I think, and, he got hold of this research, quickly devoured it, had a point of view on it, and put it out before the telcos could do it. And and because he was a part of the telcos, he was a he was a sort of a bit more of a a startup voice. He he had a pretty strong opinion on it.
TREVOR YOUNG:And so you might be in an industry where some research has come out or some new legislation involving your your industry or your space comes out. If there's a third party something happening, you can piggyback on that. I mean, it's, you know, I use the word piggyback. David Mimman Scott uses the word newsjacking. You know, maybe there's a big sale of 2 major companies in your industry, and you're you come in on the top of that and have an opinion on whether that's good or bad for for for the public, for example.
TREVOR YOUNG:And that's that's called just timeliness, piggybacking, newsjacking. What's your thoughts on doing that? It's it's it's a hard game. You've got to be ready. You've got to be agile, but that's a good way to cut through in a new sense in a in a bang.
TREVOR YOUNG:Let's do it.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Definitely. I think if you're if you're able to get your hands on research, fair play to that man. I don't think you'll you'll have that too too often. But I think if you're if you're in the whatever industry you're in, you will have insights and a point of difference that others don't. So it's about looking for for what the media are going to care about.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So, for example, I would often have, digital clients that want to talk about the latest innovations, put their finger on the pulse. And anytime there's an Apple, Google event or Samsung, if they're doing something interesting with their technology products, you already have tech reporters that are gonna be talking about the latest innovations, or lack of innovations if but since the iPad, things like that. So there's things that you can plan for already. As long as they align with your your messaging, you can you can try and play that in. And, when I'm putting together a contact calendar for a client, it's looking at those opportunities that exist, whether it's, new innovations at South by Southwest or the latest media trends from Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Yeah. There will be things that you can view, see what people are talking about, and use that as an opportunity to talk about what you want. So news tracking is term that's fallen a little bit out of favor in recent years, but it's something that, still allows you to get a a very quick tactical hit for, a little bit less effort, that's required. 1 or 2 lines that offer insights that no one else can, and you'll be in a good place.
TREVOR YOUNG:And it it it may be a a new term, but it's been around for 30 years. I mean, we were I was doing this when I first went into PR, and PR in my early days was very publicity driven, and we were always looking at topics to jump on. It's just that it's sped up so so, so more more quickly, more quickly, quicker, quickly. It's one of those words. Yeah.
TREVOR YOUNG:Just the speed to market is just crazy. We talked about research, and, you know, if you can, use other people's research, that's good, or if it's legislation or something that's come out of an official body of work, from a government or government authority or whatever that's relevant to your industry and your people and your products, etcetera, and have a point of view on it. But, when we want to create news, sometimes you do the research and you have an opinion on it. Now what's your I'll ask for your take on this in a minute, but I've been involved in this many times over the journey and like if we wanted with some consumer products, for example, and to be fair, some of these had deeper pockets, but we'd get a proper researcher out to do, you know, robust research. So you could say 3 in 5, Australians prefer this or whatever like that or, you know, if it's global, it's it's even more fun.
TREVOR YOUNG:More nuance on that one. More complexity. But, you know, that you could then pitch that to the media or give an exclusive to a a major newspaper, and that would get you millions of views through a, you know, a mainstream metro newspaper. But then there's the industry stuff like the well, you and I have talked extensively in the past about the Edelman Trust Barometer, and it's probably about 20 years old now, and every year they come out with taking the pulse of people's trust in the institutions of media and business and nonprofit and, government. And that makes the news all the time because it's robust.
TREVOR YOUNG:It's that's, excuse the pun, trusted and, and that sort of things. But if I look at a smaller scale, you know, we see organisations like buffer and mighty networks and these are, you know, they're not the biggest of companies, but they're doing research on certain topics, and then they get covered on that. So, you know, doing your own research and then sharing that with the relevant bloggers, news people, all of that, that's powerful. It's a big ticket item, but it could have legs across all your own channels, all your social channels, might get you on podcasts, might get you in newspapers, magazines, blogs refer to it. You know, yes, big hairy meaty stuff, but wow.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:The value can go for for years, if not if not longer. Like, there's there's one client I work with, who has some owned research from, around about 7 or 8 years ago. But because it's the only research in market, it's still worth quoting. It's still worth looking at at how that existed then, and even without new research, pontificating as to, how things have changed and sped up even more to, I guess, exemplify the point. I think that when it comes to research, you don't always have to have a research agency involved.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Of questions and demographic who you're looking to target, usually going into it with an an upcoming mine hypothesis. But you could also look at third party databases, like Nielsen or others and Global Webin Annex, as a company I used to work with, they may have amazing reports, the state of, the online industry and consumer behavior, their sentiment, their important reports of how people are feeling. If you take some of this data and overlay it with with some of your own or anonymized data across, your own client set, it often it creates a new piece of research that is, more niche in its, in its development, but it's the 3rd party and the first party. If you can combine those, then it makes things a lot, quicker, easier, and quicker to market and also cheaper, I imagine, in the long run. So there are options available, of even within opinion pieces, taking a number of different sources and putting them together in a way that hasn't been done before.
TREVOR YOUNG:Synthesizing with that.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Yeah. You're you're finding new insightful, angles that people have not thought about. It can't just be gripping, copying, and pasting what someone else has already done.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yep.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:But if you're taking a statistic from the global eMarketer, if you're taking the size of the industry, and quantifying that for a journalist and their audience, that really brings home the market opportunity. And if you're then able to give some local nuance to it, whether it's you're in Australia, whether you're in the UK, whether you're in North America. Yeah. Depending on the publication, they will look for a greater sense of scale or, nicheness. Yep.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Thanks.
TREVOR YOUNG:To to to clarify that.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:I think there's there's a lot of options available too.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yep.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And one thing just to add as well is that, within research, and you mentioned it before about global or or local, it's looking at the audiences and either proving or disproving people's perspective about something. So whether it comes around to state of origin time and you're looking at New South Wales versus Queensland, splitting people by state will, resonate more with national audiences. We had a a piece of research for, a real estate client, that was, looking at, again, divided by state, and that ran on news.com, and that was massive for the business. Yeah. Reached millions of people.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So I think if you can find something that that proves or disproves what people already think or know, that's that's gold dust with VR.
TREVOR YOUNG:And and and when you say I mean, we've we look at local, which is in your local area. And this is, you know, we this podcast goes out to people around the world. So, you know, whenever we're talking, you know, local, it's your local area or it might be your local industry or whatever it is. There's niches. There's vertical markets, which is where, you know, what you work in.
TREVOR YOUNG:That could be national, but it could also be international now. And I guess if you're in a country like the States, each state is, you know, like a a mini country on its own. And, you know, are you do you just want state by state or, national, editorial coverage depending on, you know, what your needs are or international. So that leads me to something too. I mean, we've worked on, you know, professional services companies that are global.
TREVOR YOUNG:They just happen to be based in Australia, but they you know, most of their businesses globally. And, you know, we were getting them coverage in English based international publications and that sort of things and that's terrific. But sometimes even if you are okay my business is within my borders it's with just in the UK or just in Australia or wherever and you have an opportunity to, get into a, let's call it a vertical title that, you know handles your industry or your profession and it's it's a global publication or a very much a European for example, there's still value, I think, even though it's not necessarily hitting your audience a 100%, to if you can get a piece up in something that's bigger, then that can translate well back home into your smaller domestic market because you're then sharing it everywhere, and it's the bona fides, you know, trust in your brand will go up. But also that's pretty good for the media that covers that same, industry in your country, because they'll be reading the bigger international, publications.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:I think that's right. And, in Australia in particular, a lot of the media and a lot of the conversations are inward looking, and focus a lot about Australia, sometimes wider to APAC. And and it's not to say that there won't be articles looking at what the US is doing and seeing how that influences over here. Like, so TikTok being banned, for example, is is one, one point around that. But the the the aim of PR is to get someone else to use someone else's platform to authenticate what you do and give give you a voice and almost legitimize what you're doing.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:If that's locally, fantastic. If it's internationally, that's also, can give you greater credence. So there's a client I've worked with in Australia that only cares about the local market. However, there's an opportunity with the BBC to go on BBC World, and that, goes to every hotel room, I think, globally. So that was massive for them.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:They picked up a client off the back of it because, it offers them the legitimacy that the BBC pick it up. Yep. You must be doing something right in your local market. It doesn't matter what you're doing almost locally. So, yes, you that's not strictly true.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:If you don't have a a a great product and team to service it, then all the PR in the world isn't gonna make that much of a difference, and it's leaking out the other end. You understand the point. I think that it's it's giving you the the legitimacy and the authority. And I think if you can then take that coverage and post it through LinkedIn, again, your local market is seeing that. So use your own channels once you've already got the earned media, and it doubles, triples, quadruples in value, even if the people did see it the first time.
TREVOR YOUNG:Look. It's you're so you're so right. And the the two words, legitimacy and authority, you know, in in a in an age of AI that's speeding up all the time, the power of the personal brand. And when we're saying personal brand it's not just about personal branding because if you are an expert within a company or you are a business owner and you're the leader then you have to be out there front and center. And and so personal and business brands just join together because if you own a business, you know, you will be marked as that the owner of that business and that, you know, that that trickles back down to, you know, there's a dotted well, it's not even a dotted line.
TREVOR YOUNG:There's a a line back to your brand, your business brand. So that's you know, the brand itself doesn't do much. It's the people that bring it to life, and that's you as the owner or the leader or your internal experts, subject matter, experts, subject knowledge leaders internally. That's that's where it really you know, the more of those you've got out there talking, that's that's fantastic. But legitimacy, I mean, the the the great thing with getting covered on, yeah, a radio interview or a, I've I've got a a former client who's gosh.
TREVOR YOUNG:He seems to be in the press. He was a coaching client, and we built him up to, you know, started off with just doing videos and owned media and that sort of stuff and just to get hone his message and his story and his presentations. And he's just so so good at commenting on on topical issues, and, and he's out and about every he's popping up all the time that I'm on radio here and on TV here and National Sky News and Channel 7 News and, you know, all the mainstream media now. And and that just really brought home how it can happen, Snowball. He was not known.
TREVOR YOUNG:He was literally not known, and now he's been on every major network in the country and and about 3 or 4 different radio, networks as well as a as a commentator in the space. And a lot of radio, for example, and TV, they've got their go to's. Like, if you're a, you know, comment on a certain type of law or politics or technology or AI or whatever it is, you know, there's chances are that, you know, someone else is already out there commenting on that. So you need to have a point of difference. You need to, be available.
TREVOR YOUNG:You need to be ready. You need to pitch in all the time. And it's it's an ongoing thing. This is not a if you're going down the earned media route and and wanting media coverage, it's it's something you need to put your heart and soul into. It's not a campaign at all.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:No. No. And I think often I'll have prospective clients come and say, can we do this one off piece? Or we've got 2 or 3 campaigns coming within the next 6 months. What can we do?
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And I I quite honest with them and say, look. PR, to get the true value from it, you need to have an always on tap. And that doesn't mean that you've got news all the time, but it does mean that you're out and about, visible all the time as well. So the opinion pieces spoke about earlier, the tactical comment opportunities we spoke about earlier, this is where the it doesn't matter how much is going on within your own company, You're still able to get your thoughts out there. So a combination of that is is fantastic, but it doesn't work if you if you just turn it off every time that you haven't got something to say.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:That is just a publicity, machine that is sporadic at best. Yeah. And that's not gonna get you the the media relations point that we were talking about earlier. Yep. You need to be interested and interesting.
TREVOR YOUNG:And interesting. Yes. And if you get
LIAM FITZPATRICK:through both of those, then, the relation part of things will will help as well.
TREVOR YOUNG:Walk us through some of the, like, some of the areas then that people are getting news about. So, sometimes there's straight business profiles that aren't newsy but you know if you're if you're a hot new company and you're doing something interesting in your space and people are starting to talk about you then there's there's a chance that maybe you know you'll get covered for what it is you're doing. That's one thing. When you're saying new takes fresh takes twists we're talking more bigger picture industry trends that side of things Is that where you know an opinion piece is and I know that you and I have worked in this space a long time and together on this with our clients and that's you know, let's target 1 publication with 1 opinion piece and and give it our our all. And then once you've done that, you can put it on your own channels maybe.
TREVOR YOUNG:But walk us through that because that's a I wouldn't say it's low hanging fruit because there's a fair bit of effort, and I've seen what goes in behind the scenes. Walk us through that just as a mini case study. No names, no pactural necessarily, but, you know, we target there's a a publication that we wanna get into. It's really important. It's priority for us, and how you you know, they take contributions and but you're not known.
TREVOR YOUNG:How do you do that?
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Okay. Well, let's start with a local example in Australia. I think the majority of business clients that you speak with would like to be in their AFR.
TREVOR YOUNG:The financial review, that's there.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Yes. The Australian
TREVOR YOUNG:For international, that's, the Financial Review is like the Financial Times, which is like the Wall Street Journal, in comparison. Yep. You for Australia.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Exactly that. So Financial Times, it's it's meant to be dispassionate journalism, where you're just talking about what's happening from a factual standpoint with a business lean lean to it. I think if you're looking to get in there, with a news story, you it needs to be a household name, that's either you're doing business for or that you are home ready. So it's a little bit harder, to do so. But the more that you pitch and even if a journalist isn't gonna write something about you the first time you pitch it, keep them up to date with news, and be honest and say, look.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:This this probably isn't right, for your, audience right now. However, I just wanted to keep you informed about it, and there will be some more interesting stuff coming later as well. So you're building that relationship piece as well. I think if you're if you're looking to get covered within these sections, there are formatted formatted sections that happen every week, where they're looking for someone within the industry to have an interesting take on things, whether that's a business leader who walks around barefoot during his lunch hour or does Ironman on the weekend. Something that offers a bit of color and a bit of personality to you as a business leader and, I guess, looks at the the person behind the brand, people by people.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Right? So you need to, look at other options that aren't just within your, your target vertical, I guess. So if you're a tech company, there's only a certain amount of tech stories that are gonna be written every week. Are there any other places that you can get involved with that publication? And it is about starting small.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:I think one former client described it as compound, content. So the more that you write, it builds up an arsenal that you're able to refer to later, and you will have the opportunity to, share that information with journalists, and they can see that you it's not the first time that you've written about this topic. Maybe you've written about something 2 years ago that predicted the future. And then this time you're pitching in a trends piece, you can point to the fact that I've already done this. I've already seen where the market is going.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:Now that's not gonna happen every time, but it's just an example of how you can, rely on content that from that you've done about wasted time if it doesn't get picked up anywhere.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yep. As long
LIAM FITZPATRICK:as you've got something to say.
TREVOR YOUNG:And I think it's good to have aspirations to get into the bigger media if that's relevant for you. Not everyone needs to be in it. In fact, you know, sometimes, you know, being in a big publication or on a breakfast morning, TV show might look good and feel good, but it won't move the needle whereas
LIAM FITZPATRICK:It can be a vanity piece. Right?
TREVOR YOUNG:Yeah. And that's fine. It might give you a bit of credibility.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:It could be as simple as my mom reads the, reads the Sunday Times. I wanna be in there if it's in the UK, Or my dad reads the, the magazine section of, the Oz weekend. It it's a it's about making a difference both to your business, but then using, those bigger pieces that might not move the needle, for you within a business, but use them as a a legitimacy builder within your own channels again.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yeah. I I like the idea. If you're starting off, this is my this is usually my usually my advice. If someone's starting off fresh, you know, they've maybe they've, you know, been around the blocks. They've got credibility.
TREVOR YOUNG:They run their own business. They're an expert in this space. You know, and and part of their now I wanna get out and do more in the media and just, you know, I've got my owned media stuff. I've been doing some blogging and all of that sort of stuff. So the the foundation work is there.
TREVOR YOUNG:Right? I mean, sometimes then, you know, there's no point trying this unless you've got a really hot news story. So I'm taking that you haven't got a hot news story to try and get into the big major flagship titles straight up. I I'm I'll I'll call it I think we've discussed this before, the rolling thunder strategy where you start small and you start niche and you start tiny. And that might be as simple as being on someone's podcast which might reach 200 people.
TREVOR YOUNG:And you might do a guest blog post on someone's blog or a branded, you know, a blog that a brand in your industry runs. And it might be something as, you know, that's that's simple. And of course, you've got your own media and your and your social media stuff you're doing as a matter of course, but this is going and and leveraging other people's audiences. And start small and start small and just keep building and building and building. And then, you know, it might be a trade magazine where you get, you know, submit an opinion piece or whatever and you just build up to the bigger stuff.
TREVOR YOUNG:And not only does that get your confidence going but it's it's a lot more achievable. It feels better. It gives you confidence, but you're sharpening your voice. You're sharpening your point of view. And I think that that's absolutely critical if you're going to take the long term view of that.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:It's, an interesting analogy has come to mind that a rock band that gets, becomes viral might not be able to, wow a stadium audience on day 1. Gigging on the circuit, to play to crowds that aren't there to see them, to really sharpen or hone their craft. And I think you could make the same, comparison with with media and and finding your own voice as well. You're exactly right. A lot of this stuff, you can do yourself already.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:You don't need a PR agency. There's enough, house styled, information on a publication's website to get an idea of how to write for their audience, but also a number of them will accept contributions. And there'll be explicit details of how you can contribute to this publication, What they do like, what they don't like, what's gonna work for them. And more often than not, it's having one opinion and arguing that point well. I think if you can start there, that's the basis of a good opinion strategy, is having one point making it well.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And you can do that across different audiences and publications and say it a slightly different way. Wouldn't diversify your message too much when you're starting out. People won't know you. People won't have read everything that you've written. So sounding similar, but repurposing some of that, content or, ideation is no bad thing in the beginning.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And then you can diversify a little bit later, and broaden the things that you're willing to talk about and happy to talk about. And you're right. Confidence does breed confidence. Yep. So you're not gonna get on the Today Show tomorrow.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:No. It's not it's unlikely to happen, unless there's something that you are uniquely positioned to talk about, and you've got, the right person's number.
TREVOR YOUNG:But that doesn't happen. That's it. That's it. There's a couple of things there. You you you might not be known yet and, but the other thing is, you know, you're up against someone who's got a book on the topic.
TREVOR YOUNG:So you might be better. Your your opinion might be stronger your perspective but someone else has done it before you and they've they've got the contact number of the of the researcher or the producer. And, you know, there's a little bit of that, but that, you know, that doesn't mean you need a PR agency, but it's just something to be aware of, in that respect. You get a you know, someone to help you when you want to start really, taking things up a notch. You need guidance, you know, bring in Leon.
TREVOR YOUNG:You know? You need arms and legs and you wanna triple down, then you might need a couple of other bodies because there is time involved in pitching you out. Not every post is gonna be a winner, and the worst thing you can do is just flood the newsrooms and radio stations with a press release, a generic press release that and again, unless you've got the best news not going at that point in time and it resonates, it's not gonna work for you. And so, you know, that's what a lot of people think. Oh, I'll just put a press release out.
TREVOR YOUNG:The whole notion, we mentioned it earlier, one story for 1, you know, one at a time. You know, if 1 magazine knocks you back, go to the next one, that side of things and I know that's the way you work Liam. And I know I did mention I've mentioned podcasts a few times I still think that it's a great grounding. There's probably enough podcasts out there that are doing interview formats and you know podcasters want having been in that boat you know you're you're doing it as a sideline you want, good guests, who've got a bit of gravitas, who've got a bit of credibility, and who can, you know, have a good conversation with and add a bit of value to your audience. And so it's not a bad way, and they're a lot more, accessible a lot of them too.
TREVOR YOUNG:If someone's running a podcast, chances are they're on Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever. They're actually out there. And, again, you build that relationship. You understand what what the podcast is all about. Same with any media.
TREVOR YOUNG:What's their audience? It's about them. It's not about you. It's not about you and your story. It's about them and their audience and how can you add value to their audience.
TREVOR YOUNG:And if you always go down that path, you're in better shape than, hey. I've got a great product. I just want publicity.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:I think you you hit the nail exactly on the head there. It's not about you. So anytime you're pitching something in, whether it's a press release, whether it's a pitch for a podcast, you need to understand the audience, but you need to understand what's gonna interest them as well. It's it is not about you. I think you're if you send irrelevant material to a journalist, even just once, you may be blacklisted, and they will, filter your emails out because it's clear that you don't understand their audience.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yep.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So be very careful. The more prestigious the journalist or the media outlet, they're harsher. They will treat people who don't understand, what what they want and what they're looking for Yep. Taking the time to do so.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yes.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:So, yes, start small. Start where people will be more accommodating if you haven't got it quite right. And often, if, Edisons will come back with, this might not be right for us, but have you thought about, looking at it from this angle? And they'll offer you advice, and you do that enough times. Again, it's a compounding effect of the sharpening, your opinion, your voice, but also understanding of the the media and their agenda.
LIAM FITZPATRICK:And cast setting is one where, like we're doing right now, you can have a conversation. It's it's not as pressurized. It's not live. And you have the ability to, I guess, get get your thoughts across in the way that you'd like to. And also talk about things that aren't just about you.
TREVOR YOUNG:Yep. 100%. And you've you've said email a lot because a lot of journals, emails are still probably the best way. Some you might lock on and get the phone, but that those days are pretty much gone. I think it's more email.
TREVOR YOUNG:And, you know, there's no reason why, a lot of journalists are on Twitter that you can't reach out to them on Twitter. And, as I've seem to recall, they're they're more active on LinkedIn than ever before now. So, you know, there are ways to get through to the right people, but don't waste their time. That is that is the clear message. Alrighty.
TREVOR YOUNG:Thanks, very much, Liam. This has been enlightening, and we could probably go for another couple of hours on this because it's a it's a very meaty topic, and there's lots lots of lots of, pathways we can take. But at the end of the day is, you know, if my definition of PR is how can you deepen the level of connection with the people who matter the most to the success of your business or cause or issue if that's your end game. And in this case, it could be a particular journalist or it could be, several podcasters or it could be, you know, it's not just your audience all the time being clients and customers, but the people who influence them. And that's what this has been about.
TREVOR YOUNG:Who who can who influences your, you know, intended audience, your your end audience, your target audience. And, you know, what do they read, listen to, watch, you know, that side of things. And and how can you build your authority and demonstrate your expertise and that you're in the know and you've got the chops and you've, you know, you're a credible individual and therefore your business is really great as well. And, going through the media, today's is still a very good thing, but they don't ever forget the owned media channels, your social media channels, and how this whole media ecosystem works. So, what's the best place for people to connect with you, Liam?
LIAM FITZPATRICK:I think you covered it there. LinkedIn is probably the best. Liam Fitzpatrick, or comms work, liam@coms work dot com dot au. Email is is still where I see it first. I turn notifications off for for all other platforms and try and have some, good time.
TREVOR YOUNG:Terrific. Thanks very much for your time, Liam. It's been great.